Clarification

Seriously what is this thread. Did reason take a vacation?
  • Game developers are not perfect. Glitches, exploits, and bad design are inherent in every game.
  • Community-run servers are allowed to have rules to offset imperfect design or to cater to preference.
  • Rules set by a community may be arbitrary vs. well-defined, consistent or not.
    • You have not agreed to any binding contract and people who run servers are not lawyers or systems analysts. If someone came to your house with a white glove they'd find dust somewhere. That doesn't mean you don't clean. Doesn't mean your house is suitable for an open-heart surgery or chipset fabrication.
  • No one is going to take time to precisely document every scenario, map, etc.
    • This includes the people asking for clarification. Where are your mock-ups for admin review based on forum posts and past examples? Why aren't you being a considerate peer of other people who need clarifications? Make an unofficial rule thread, un-sarcastically.
  • Gray areas will exist. If you're uncomfortable with that, avoid the gray area and play differently. Or test gray areas and get banned (or not), appeal, and don't do it again.
    • Example: I fly the transport heli and idiots jump out and into the transport heli, accidentally forcing me to receive a TK. Instead of raging against the system and getting kicked for too many TKs, I stop flying the transport heli and do something else.
  • Playing and speaking are two different privileges. Don't ban people for not breaking game-play rules; you can mute them if they're annoying/toxic.
The Banzore BF4 community is fun and there are quality players, even if their game play annoys someone personally. Treasure these moments with the community while you can cause the way games are going, you won't see something again like this for a while.
 
Radical_194 said:
Seriously what is this thread. Did reason take a vacation?
  • Game developers are not perfect. Glitches, exploits, and bad design are inherent in every game.
  • Community-run servers are allowed to have rules to offset imperfect design or to cater to preference.
  • Rules set by a community may be arbitrary vs. well-defined, consistent or not.
    • You have not agreed to any binding contract and people who run servers are not lawyers or systems analysts. If someone came to your house with a white glove they'd find dust somewhere. That doesn't mean you don't clean. Doesn't mean your house is suitable for an open-heart surgery or chipset fabrication.
  • No one is going to take time to precisely document every scenario, map, etc.
    • This includes the people asking for clarification. Where are your mock-ups for admin review based on forum posts and past examples? Why aren't you being a considerate peer of other people who need clarifications? Make an unofficial rule thread, un-sarcastically.
  • Gray areas will exist. If you're uncomfortable with that, avoid the gray area and play differently. Or test gray areas and get banned (or not), appeal, and don't do it again.
    • Example: I fly the transport heli and idiots jump out and into the transport heli, accidentally forcing me to receive a TK. Instead of raging against the system and getting kicked for too many TKs, I stop flying the transport heli and do something else.
  • Playing and speaking are two different privileges. Don't ban people for not breaking game-play rules; you can mute them if they're annoying/toxic.
The Banzore BF4 community is fun and there are quality players, even if their game play annoys someone personally. Treasure these moments with the community while you can cause the way games are going, you won't see something again like this for a while.
Click to expand...
Very well said Radical.
 
Radical_194 said:
Seriously what is this thread. Did reason take a vacation?
  • Game developers are not perfect. Glitches, exploits, and bad design are inherent in every game.
  • Community-run servers are allowed to have rules to offset imperfect design or to cater to preference.
  • Rules set by a community may be arbitrary vs. well-defined, consistent or not.
    • You have not agreed to any binding contract and people who run servers are not lawyers or systems analysts. If someone came to your house with a white glove they'd find dust somewhere. That doesn't mean you don't clean. Doesn't mean your house is suitable for an open-heart surgery or chipset fabrication.
  • No one is going to take time to precisely document every scenario, map, etc.
    • This includes the people asking for clarification. Where are your mock-ups for admin review based on forum posts and past examples? Why aren't you being a considerate peer of other people who need clarifications? Make an unofficial rule thread, un-sarcastically.
  • Gray areas will exist. If you're uncomfortable with that, avoid the gray area and play differently. Or test gray areas and get banned (or not), appeal, and don't do it again.
    • Example: I fly the transport heli and idiots jump out and into the transport heli, accidentally forcing me to receive a TK. Instead of raging against the system and getting kicked for too many TKs, I stop flying the transport heli and do something else.
  • Playing and speaking are two different privileges. Don't ban people for not breaking game-play rules; you can mute them if they're annoying/toxic.
The Banzore BF4 community is fun and there are quality players, even if their game play annoys someone personally. Treasure these moments with the community while you can cause the way games are going, you won't see something again like this for a while.
Click to expand...
, or ever.

Added to your last sentence!
 
Radical_194 said:
  • No one is going to take time to precisely document every scenario, map, etc.
    • This includes the people asking for clarification. Where are your mock-ups for admin review based on forum posts and past examples? Why aren't you being a considerate peer of other people who need clarifications? Make an unofficial rule thread, un-sarcastically.
Click to expand...

Solid points Radical. I think you missed the mark on this one though.

There should be no shame in asking clarifying questions to what people are perceiving as vague rules. In this case, the rules say "2: ATTACKING UNCAP IS NOT ALLOWED (Conquest Only) Don't attack the enemy's uncappable base (main base). If they fire out you can return fire." but there is also an unwritten rule that you also don't attack very near the uncap.

The flaw is that there's a rule you can be punished for yet isn't explained. I think it's normal for there to be questions in this type of scenario. The rules should be amended to match the expectations.
 
Radical_194 said:
Seriously what is this thread. Did reason take a vacation?
  • Game developers are not perfect. Glitches, exploits, and bad design are inherent in every game.
  • Community-run servers are allowed to have rules to offset imperfect design or to cater to preference.
  • Rules set by a community may be arbitrary vs. well-defined, consistent or not.
    • You have not agreed to any binding contract and people who run servers are not lawyers or systems analysts. If someone came to your house with a white glove they'd find dust somewhere. That doesn't mean you don't clean. Doesn't mean your house is suitable for an open-heart surgery or chipset fabrication.
  • No one is going to take time to precisely document every scenario, map, etc.
    • This includes the people asking for clarification. Where are your mock-ups for admin review based on forum posts and past examples? Why aren't you being a considerate peer of other people who need clarifications? Make an unofficial rule thread, un-sarcastically.
  • Gray areas will exist. If you're uncomfortable with that, avoid the gray area and play differently. Or test gray areas and get banned (or not), appeal, and don't do it again.
    • Example: I fly the transport heli and idiots jump out and into the transport heli, accidentally forcing me to receive a TK. Instead of raging against the system and getting kicked for too many TKs, I stop flying the transport heli and do something else.
  • Playing and speaking are two different privileges. Don't ban people for not breaking game-play rules; you can mute them if they're annoying/toxic.
The Banzore BF4 community is fun and there are quality players, even if their game play annoys someone personally. Treasure these moments with the community while you can cause the way games are going, you won't see something again like this for a while.
Click to expand...
Radical for president
 
shank0 said:
The flaw is that there's a rule you can be punished for yet isn't explained.
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The rule is don't attack uncap. Placing mines directly outside of uncap, so close that you're effectively forcing them to stay in uncap or to engage by destroying said mines thus forcing them into combat, is attacking uncap. The only thing that isn't able to be defined because every map is different is the distance, so logically people should place them far enough back so as not to be mistaken for uncap.

An easy example of where you shouldn't put mines is on pearl market on the uncap side where the skyscrapers are. Anyone with common sense can see why blocking off the small exit ways is considered mining uncap and is not allowed. However if you step back towards of the middle of the road, you can see where that distance would be okay.
 
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A friendly recap, in case things arent clear (because clarity is valuable):

- no one is arguing about the placement of rules. generally, players like rules. players - including donators who are afraid to ask - are and have been for some time requesting clarity in language and enforcement. clarity is not being acheived.

- suggestions to improve clarity are shot down or are regarded as common sense. (There is no such thing as common sense.)

- it is known that Swag has an ego problem.

- the fundamental idea of 'definition' is being discarded as not important.

- there is an obvious schism between rules posted in-game when a player joins and things that will actually get a player banned. if your violation falls outside of the 4 in-game listed rules, you have to dig through the internet archive to find any documentation. sometimes, it's too late (lol).

- some players, including donators (synonym: customers) are afraid to ask the stuff that us assholes ask (they appreciate it, I assure you)

- gameplay variety and counter-tactics are fun. fun should be encouraged. an engaged player base should be encouraged. if players are engaged enough to ask questions about rules that keeps gameplay various but with no bans, that should be seen as a net gain for the server.
PandaExpress293 said:
The rule is don't attack uncap. Placing mines directly outside of uncap, so close that you're effectively forcing them to stay in uncap or to engage by destroying said mines thus forcing them into combat, is attacking uncap. The only thing that isn't able to be defined because every map is different is the distance, so logically people should place them far enough back so as not to be mistaken for uncap.

An easy example of where you shouldn't put mines is on pearl market on the uncap side where the skyscrapers are. Anyone with common sense can see why blocking off the small exit ways is considered mining uncap and is not allowed. However if you step back towards of the middle of the road, you can see where that distance would be okay.
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Hi Panda,

Let's move past the logic and philosophy of definitions for a moment.

We all know not to place mines at uncap.

My question is being ignored.

Is it a violation to throw C4 onto a tank that is clear of the uncap boundary?
 
Sabretooth-Ninja said:
Let's move past the logic and philosophy of definitions for a moment.
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My response was not directed at you but to the person who said it needed to be explained.

Sabretooth-Ninja said:
Is it a violation to throw C4 onto a tank that is clear of the uncap boundary?
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If you have preemptively placed C4 in the exact same spots mentioned as mines, yes that would be a violation, as it's the same thing just a different form of explosive.
If the tank comes out of uncap and is clearly past the boundary defined by the red zone and you throw c4 onto it, that's fine.
 
PandaExpress293 said:
My response was not directed at you but to the person who said it needed to be explained.


If you have preemptively placed C4 in the exact same spots mentioned as mines, yes that would be a violation, as it's the same thing just a different form of explosive.
If the tank comes out of uncap and is clearly past the boundary defined by the red zone and you throw c4 onto it, that's fine.
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Thank you, sincerely, for answering my question.

And there you are to those who followed along and wished to know.

Sorry Bunny that you couldn't get closure.

Take care gentlemen.
 
Sabretooth-Ninja said:
if your violation falls outside of the 4 in-game listed rules, you have to dig through the internet archive to find any documentation. sometimes, it's too late (lol).
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Just for further clarity, we would also prefer the main rules post be updated to reflect additional restrictions that we enforce. Additionally, I want to state that every rule, written or otherwise, that we enforce has been approved/set by Neo. It's not a matter of us making up rules on the fly to suit our individual playstyles, that would be anarchy. So again, I do agree that they should be present in the original post , especially in regards to glitching and other more serious violations.
 
ithinkimabunny said:
So I'm being banned for being retarded?

Based.
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Your server ban has been removed. Above is the best definition you're going to get, there's simply no way to universally define it to a tee, due to the limitations of the game and due to variations in maps.

In the wise words of Neo:
neonardo1 said:
This is getting out of hand. We're all on the same team here.
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ithinkimabunny said:
Would you classify making up the rule "don't be retarded" (my playstyle), with infraction punishable by immediate ban, anarchy or not?

Because that's what happened.
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I think it was a bit excessive but there was a lot of frustration and quarreling present in that moment so it could fall under:
neonardo1 said:
In general, don't be a trouble maker in the server.
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That being said, it was removed, so I think it's best for everyone involved to move beyond this fracas and go back to slaughtering each other on the battlefield.
 
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